Photo by Juliane Lieberman on Unsplash
Today, I’ll call my dad and wish him a happy Father’s Day. We’ll probably talk about how he and my mother are celebrating the day back home, if they’ll go out to dinner, and about the Celtics’ heartbreaking loss in the NBA Finals. Most Father’s Days, I think of my own father. Rightly so.
Yet, dads are all around me. As I’ve grown older and observed friends enter that stage of their lives, I wanted to have a dedicated conversation with two such dads–two fellow millennials and good friends–about what it means to be a father today.
I’ve known Grant for almost five years now. His daughter, who is my wife’s and my goddaughter, is nearly 3 years old; his son is just shy of one. Jeremy, a friend from high school, I’ve known for almost 20 years. He has three daughters all under five years old. I see pictures of both their children frequently because, as is typical of many millennial parents, the snaps of their babies are legion. I could unsubscribe but I don’t.
I admire both Jeremy’s and Grant’s parenting. The dads that they’ve become inspire me. And, while I’m enjoying life as an Un-dad, I wanted to ask them some big questions on my mind for whenever that day comes for me.
The three of us had an hour-plus long conversation over Zoom after the kids went to sleep. We talked about raising children in tumultuous times, about how to be a good partner while parenting, and how friendships have changed in this new phase of life. Given the long-ranging conversation (and readers’ attention spans), this interview has been edited for conciseness and clarity.
What does it mean to be a parent today for you, in this backdrop of COVID, of school shootings, etc.?
Jeremy: It’s scary to think about and hard to cope with because it’s bigger than I can control. My kids are at an age where I have the ultimate protection over them but, as they grow up, I’m going to lose that control and they’re going to go out in the world and be exposed. Raising daughters is extremely scary. Raising a Laotian daughter is extremely scary. With the anti-Asian hate that went around the country, it was kind of [in the back of our minds] but it wasn’t really something we had to deal with because she was so young at the time but if she was a teenager this is something she’d have to deal with; how do I as a white parent help her cope with that?
But our philosophy is just communication and having open conversation about those things as they come up and having a dialogue where I want to hear what you think, here’s what I think. It’s more conversational. Ultimately, also knowing that as Christians it all goes beyond the current events, yet, how do you instill that in the kids as well? It’s certainly a lot.
Grant: I’ve thought a fair amount about this as well and, from a big picture perspective, we’re not the first generation to have our kids grow up in something that seems overwhelming and scary: parents during World War II or parents raising children throughout the Cold War. It feels like in history there are always big things that feel overwhelming. Every generation has something to deal with and it’s going to be okay.
Probably the number one thing that’s on our radar is extreme access to everything, via technology and the internet. Something that Jeremy said about creating open dialogue and conversation and setting good examples at home is something we feel strongly about. We want our kids to be open with us and be able to talk with us and wrestle with difficult questions sometimes. Our daughter is starting to talk and have good conversations but she’s still sheltered. We know it’s going to come sooner than we think. We want to make sure she knows she can trust us and that we can talk about a lot of difficult things. We’re going to do our best to set good examples at home regarding technology and access to the internet. It’s probably going to be hard but I know–I hope–we’ll make it through.
When kids are young, you’re everything to your children, you’re their only people. But when they go out there, they’re going to have their own experiences without you. All of a sudden, they’re just in the hands of their community.
J: We’re having that with our firstborn going to kindergarten and we’re going to be a wreck when that happens. That’s going to be the first instance where she’s going to a real learning environment and be exposed to things beyond our control.
Kids are sponges. They absorb so much and you’ll be amazed at how much they absorb and learn. We have almost adult conversations with our daughters and it’s really cool and it’s awesome to see them recall things and process emotion in ways that are just mind-blowing sometimes. It’s important to know as a parent that what you may not think is having an impact, is having an impact on them.
G: I agree with everything said. Kids are sponges. Definitely gotta be careful about what you say and do and watch.
For better or worse, they’re sponges, right?
G: For better, one of the things we’ve been trying to do around the table is talk about our days. Lately, it’s so funny our daughter will say “I want to talk about my day.” And the level of conversation is pretty low but she has picked up on the idea that it’s important to ask and listen to other people. So, for the last couple of weeks, she’s been asking Kristin and myself “What’s made you happy today?” And we’re like “Oh my gosh.”
J: So cute.
G: Super cute. And there’s other things like sometimes I call my wife “hottie” around the house when no one’s around and a handful of times, my daughter’s been like “Hey hottie, can I get some water?” And I’m like “No! No!”
What does it mean to be a good partner in the context of parenting? So much energy seems to go into parenting; do you feel like you have enough time to consider what it means to be a good partner? Does that make sense?
J: One hundred and ten percent. [Groans].
G: That’s a good one. Let me start by saying it’s important to prioritize your spouse as well as your children. And there are some things that will definitely change when you have kids. I think your relationship with your spouse has to change just to survive. It’s the nature of raising kids. I think we’ve done a pretty good job of splitting tasks, partially to maximize efficiency of raising kids but some things just take forever because you can’t be efficient with everything. I’m very blessed and feel grateful we had a very long time together as a married couple to learn about each other–how we function, what’s difficult for one another–before we had kids.
I’m glad that my wife and I do try to check in with each other and have time just for one another. Some nights after we put the kids to bed, we have work to get done, but some nights we can talk to each other. Some nights we feel too exhausted to do either and we just have to watch TV. But it’s important to fight for those moments together. They’re fewer and farther between than they used to be but I’m so glad we still try to fight for those moments.
J: This is so refreshing to hear from another parent because everything Grant said, I’m like, yes, yes, I can relate 100%. There’s so many things to be said about this question. If I were to give someone advice, I’d say make sure you and your spouse are on the same page and hold each other accountable to be on the same team. Like if you have different philosophies on how to discipline or how to handle a situation, you should talk about it beforehand. That’s where Bekah and I feel like we run into our hardest challenges when one or the other feels like we’re not on the same team raising these crazy kids.
So, I think it’s crucial to make sure you maintain the integrity of being on the same team. Part of that is creating space for each other, which we have not always done very well. COVID made that particularly challenging. The first time away without any kids together was almost a year and a half after the girls were born. It was a long time and a crazy period but that brief trip was so refreshing. Make sure you’re intentional with that time you have together. It leads to being on the same team and makes it easier for parenting.
One thing that Grant said that I appreciated is that when you have kids it changes you as a person but also your relationship. One of the coolest things I loved most about becoming a parent was seeing Bekah becoming a parent. It brought out something in her I'd never seen before but it was totally amazing. She's the most wonderful mother, I’ve learned so much from her.
You’re only human so you only have capacity to give so much of yourself and I think parents naturally have to exert their energy into their children first for survival and there’s a little bit left over. And that little bit left over is when you run into challenges. Like, both of us can end up feeling like “I see you being so patient or empathetic with the kids but when it’s us, it’s so much harder [for you to be that way with me].” It comes full circle, you have to make sure you invest time in each other. It’s a huge challenge but it’s important in terms of how you raise your kids together.
G: One thousand percent agree with needing to be on the same page and team. It’s super important.
As a close friend to both of you, sometimes I feel guilty asking you to hang out because I don’t want to burden you given your parental responsibilities. How important is it, with the little space you have left, to squeeze friendships in?
J: For me, I think it’s important but it becomes harder to be a good friend. And not just a friend, but to the rest of my family, to be a good brother to my sisters. For me, it may be a personality thing, but having a fire pit with some of my closest guy friends in Richmond is super rejuvenating and refreshing. I find it very helpful personally to feel like my emotional tank is refilled. These are healthy relationships and, for fellow fathers, it’s important to talk about challenges, good, bad, funny and just have a different outlet to process other than your spouse or the person you’re raising kids with.
G: I value friendship quite a bit. Both parenting and COVID have thrown a wrench into those things. For better or worse. It really forced Kristin and I to prioritize who to spend our precious time with. We had to cut out a lot of acquaintances, some good people, but we just didn’t have the time for them, and wanted to prioritize a handful of people. The people that we have now are people we care about a lot and so we’re willing to give that time and it’s not a burden for us.
Looking forward to whenever I become a parent, one thing I’m already self-conscious about is whether I can help my future kids be Chinese enough, whatever that means, or even if I should try. What does it mean to you for your kids to have a certain heritage and for your ability to pass those on?
J: I’ve thought about that a lot. I’ve actually asked for advice: how do I celebrate my daughter’s heritage being Laotian? Her biological mother went through a very traumatic experience but we want to give our daughter that option [to know her biological family], whenever the mother is ready, to celebrate her heritage because we are not the most equipped parents to do that.
The way we’ve tried to be intentional about this is to try and pick a church body that’s diversified and make sure there are people who look like her. We have books we read to her about different skin colors and the way people look differently that also assign beauty to those things. I think it comes down to open communication making sure we create an environment–she knows she looks differently than we do–where she doesn’t necessarily feel different in a broader sense, to make sure she experiences that in the church body, for example. It’s certainly a challenge, something we’ve talked about a lot, and we don’t have a great answer for it.
Oh no, I didn’t mean to imply that there was.
J: Yeah, there isn’t. And Pat, you’ve explained how [your understanding of race] changed for you over your life and the importance has changed and shifted over time and we want to be supportive of that for my oldest as that may happen to her as well.
G: From a racial standpoint, I’m coming from the opposite perspective. I want my daughter to be more exposed. She’s a quarter Asian but you look at her and you’d never know. She’s blond and blue-eyed. What’s important is that she gets to spend time with her family. That we make trips to see Kristin’s parents and opportunities to see her grandparents. My daughter has a Taiwanese middle name and my son has a Taiwanese middle name. People are going to look at that and be like what the heck, what are your parents thinking?
Really hippie parents.
G: Sometimes there’s a little discomfort. But, we’re just excited that I mean, [identity-wise], we want to root her in Jesus first and ground her in Christ. We’re going to do the best we can with that.
I like this excuse to dig deep into what you all think about being a parent because I don’t get it on a super regular basis despite it being an integral part of your lives. Any last thoughts you want to leave me with? Any advice?
G: Appreciate whatever stage you’re in. Just lean into wherever you are.
Right, don’t look back.
G: Be in the moment. Surround yourself with people you admire and want to be like and surround yourself with good people. I think that’ll make you a good person too.
J: I learned the value of family and good friends. The phrase, “It takes a village…” (G: Yes, yes, all the time.)... It has special meaning as a parent. We’d be completely lost and hopeless without the support of our family and our friends here in Richmond.
“This too shall pass” is also a common phrase that comes up which is extremely hard in the moment but, as a parent, is absolutely true. I mean, it’s hard. Even now, looking back, you miss the prior phase, as hard as that phase was. I remember waking up at 3am feeding my daughter bottles and now I miss that. I realize now some moments were priceless quality time that, in the moment, were crippling.
G: It’s very true.
J: My youngest is basically walking now and I've seen two kids walk now and it is still the greatest thing in the world. You have your first child, and you think “I love this thing so much I couldn’t love anything else” and then you have a second and you’re like “How do I love this thing as much as the first one” and it just keeps happening, it’s a crazy phenomenon.
G: Very true. Just be present. Love what you’ve got right in front of you.
J: Yeah, yeah.
I know I said this at the top of this but I love you both and love watching you be dads. It inspires me everyday. Happy Father’s Day, y’all.